Curse

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 14, 2010, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Haah, waaw.

No. This is silly.

Voice of Reason · Feb 14, 2010, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Buff Mysticism, but preferably not like this. Whether I win or lose shouldn't be left to chance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

By your logic, RoF wouldn't work because there is no subset of damage skills. point is spell attempts to remove enchant, chance kicks in, either mysticism would save it, or it would be removed.

From wiki:
Enchantment Spell. For 8 seconds, the next time target ally would take damage or life steal, that ally gains that amount of Health instead, maximum 15...67...80.

RoF reacts to any damage/life steal taken by the enchanted person, not to a skill in paticular. But, even though Ugh's point is correct, it doesn't really matter because this could still be implemented in the way reaper previously described. Although that doesn't really matter either, since this probably isn't the best way to buff mysticism for reasons described in earlier posts.

BaconSoda · Feb 15, 2010, 12:07 AM // 00:07

I rather think Mysticism already nullifies enchantment stripping rather well. The whole point of the thing is to make it that when you lose an enchantment, you're not completely messed up (like, say, a Monk would be). That Energy is something I would rather have than not have, afterall. In PvP, where there are generally only a couple of strips around in one match, it's rather easy to cover an enchantment, and the starter enchantment (Vital Boon) works well enough for providing a benefit out of a bad situation.

Enchantment stripping is just the counter to Dervishes. What can you really do about it? Just about as much as a Warrior who runs into someone with Blinding Flash: find a Counter-Counter. Cover your enchantments or run a build which benefits from enchantment stripping more than it detriments (Lots of Earth Prayers, for example). Vow of Silence stops stripping in PvE masterfully in any case, and it works well enough as a stripper-stopper until you can get into damage range of Earth Prayers anyway. This game is all about being dynamic and using your particular skills to your advantage. Instead of complaining about how something counters you, think of a way to turn that counter to your advantage.

The Drunkard · Feb 15, 2010, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

there are lots of positive effects from enchantment stripping. have a look under earth prayers.

this. Primary attributes should never hamper the player.

/notsiged

Bob Slydell · Feb 15, 2010, 04:38 AM // 04:38

There is nothing wrong with it. As guy above me quoted, Look into Earth Prayers. Have a nice day.

/notsigned

reaper with no name · Feb 15, 2010, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

this. Primary attributes should never hamper the player.

/notsiged

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Slydell

There is nothing wrong with it. As guy above me quoted, Look into Earth Prayers. Have a nice day.

/notsigned

So, let me get this straight. I have an idea that would singlehandedly make dervishes useful in the game without nerfing anyone else, and you don't like it because it would mess up builds that rely upon the enemy stripping your enchantments for you?

It's one thing to think this is a bad idea, or that there are better ways to fix the dervish. Those I can accept. But this has got to be the worst reason ever. First off, enchantment spam is generally not useful. Second, even if it is, no decent build that utilizes it would rely upon enemy enchantment stripping to function; it would bring self-strips, because you can't depend on the enemy to strip you when you want them to.

MagmaRed · Feb 15, 2010, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Please.... PLEASE.... stop suggesting things for GW. I have yet to see an idea you posted with any merit. And even the SMALL number of people who supported any of your ideas did not have reasons that were based on game balance. This idea creates problems for game mechanics. It also isn't useful due to the random nature you suggest. As far as you are concerned, the Dervish sucks, and needs to be buffed to be useful. THIS IS WRONG. I will admit there are things the Dervish could be improved on, but you think (in my opinion) that there is nothing worth using a Dervish for. That is wrong, as I see people using Dervish quite often and doing so quite well.

Either learn what the other people learned (how to use a Dervish) or play another class.

reaper with no name · Feb 15, 2010, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Haah, waaw.

No. This is silly.

Silly? A profession that is built around self-buffing via enchantments being more able to resist having them stripped makes perfect sense.

You want some primary attributes that don't make sense?

Leadership: You get energy from yelling at people at the top of your lungs.

Strength: You get armor penetration, but only on attack skills. I guess Warriors must be lazy or something.

Expertise: Even though Mr Ritualist has spent years studying how to summon spirits and you just learned how to do it yesterday, you are so good at it you can do it with half as much energy as it takes him.

Soul Reaping: Get energy when an undead or golem dies near you, even though they don't have souls to reap. However, you don't get energy from spirits dying near you, even though they are nothing but souls. Yeah... That seems a little backward to me.

Critical Strikes: You get energy from stabbing people in the kidneys. What, are assassins all vampires who drink the liquid from arterial sprays and convert it to energy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason

Buff Mysticism, but preferably not like this. Whether I win or lose shouldn't be left to chance.

Ok. I'm sure there aren't a lot of mechanics in GW that are dependent upon chance.

Damage ranges on weapons
Block chances
Sundering, extra adrenaline, halved skill recharge, +1 attribute, and half cast time mods
Failure chance on certain skills if requirement isn't met
Miss chance from blindness and hexes

Del · Feb 15, 2010, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Please.... PLEASE.... stop suggesting things for GW. I have yet to see an idea you posted with any merit. And even the SMALL number of people who supported any of your ideas did not have reasons that were based on game balance. This idea creates problems for game mechanics. It also isn't useful due to the random nature you suggest. As far as you are concerned, the Dervish sucks, and needs to be buffed to be useful. THIS IS WRONG. I will admit there are things the Dervish could be improved on, but you think (in my opinion) that there is nothing worth using a Dervish for. That is wrong, as I see people using Dervish quite often and doing so quite well.

Either learn what the other people learned (how to use a Dervish) or play another class.

Quoted for truth.

same goes for twits whining about mesmers being weak in pve.

reaper with no name · Feb 15, 2010, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Please.... PLEASE.... stop suggesting things for GW. I have yet to see an idea you posted with any merit. And even the SMALL number of people who supported any of your ideas did not have reasons that were based on game balance. This idea creates problems for game mechanics. It also isn't useful due to the random nature you suggest. As far as you are concerned, the Dervish sucks, and needs to be buffed to be useful. THIS IS WRONG. I will admit there are things the Dervish could be improved on, but you think (in my opinion) that there is nothing worth using a Dervish for. That is wrong, as I see people using Dervish quite often and doing so quite well.

Either learn what the other people learned (how to use a Dervish) or play another class.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I'm going "Wah wah, this game is too hard, my class must be underpowered, QQ!"

What I'm actually doing is going "Wah wah, these other classes are better than mine in every single way, so even though I can get through the game just fine, it doesn't matter because they can do it even better, QQ!"

I should note at this point that this is one of the main arguments being applied against SF. SF is bad because it is so much better than everything else that it defeats the purpose of using the alternatives, thereby crowding them out by virtue of being better. Of course, there's more to SF than that (it affects the economy, for example), but you get the basic premise. If we are going to have 10 professions in this game, then each of those 10 professions should have something useful that no one else can do as well. Dervishes don't. It is this simple premise from which all the buffs and nerfs in the game's history can be derived.

It's as simple as that. I'd be glad to be proven wrong on this, I really would. But so far, it has yet to happen.

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 15, 2010, 06:00 AM // 06:00

This is pretty much a bad idea through and through. I actually prefer it's current form to your suggestion lol

Reverend Dr · Feb 15, 2010, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Enchant removal resist would fill a similar roll as such stances as mantra of resolve or pious concentration.

shoyon456 · Feb 15, 2010, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

As far as you are concerned, the Dervish sucks, and needs to be buffed to be useful. THIS IS WRONG. I will admit there are things the Dervish could be improved on, but you think (in my opinion) that there is nothing worth using a Dervish for. That is wrong, as I see people using Dervish quite often and doing so quite well.

Guess what? YOU ARE WRONG. Dervs cannot be effective healers/casters because they are eclipsed by Ele's Estorage/Ether Renewal/Infuse and Monk's sheer healing amount via Divine Favor.

Dervs also fail at being scythe wielders compared to Rangers, Assassins, and Warriors. Rangers can spam scythe attacks more as opposed to Derv's circular enchantment cycling with periods of no energy for attacks. Assassins can spam attacks more than Dervs AND have incredibly high DPS via Critical Strikes and have nearly a permanent 33% IAS. Warriors' Strength + Warrior's Endurance gives them more overall damage via armor pen AND STILL allow them to spam attacks more than dervs.

Conclusion: Derv's can't be healers/caster because Mysticism doesn't have enough healing/casting skills or a potent enough effect to make it worthwhile to use over other classes. Derv's can't be effective scythe users compared to other classes, because their primary (Mysticism) does nothing to augment damage directly.

The Dervish: A jack of all trades, master of none.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Either learn what the other people learned (how to use a Dervish) or play another class.

Most of the people in the world are stupid. Those people aren't playing the class saying "Oh, I'm going to be a Dervish because it is the best at doing X role." Actually, if most of us Derv mains were to be honest, I'd bet the overriding factor in why someone makes a Derv their main is because it looks cool. Personally, I like the concept/lore of the Derv and its' look. But for actual game performance, the Dervish is subpar to other classes due to the ineffective nature of Mysticism and the broken Scythe.

Something needs to be done, but the OP's idea is terrible. Too bad Anet doesn't give a flying fuggut enough to do something.

EDIT:
You want to see the true test of whether or not the Dervish is effective at ANY role? Go to DoA/UW/FoW/Deep/Urgoz, find a serious guild/alliance group that isn't using a gimmick, and see if they'll let you in. Dervs are not allowed in high-end PvE because that spot can be filled by something BETTER, which happens to be anything. And show me a consistently good guild/team for GvG/HA that uses even a single Derv in most of its' team builds.

Amy Awien · Feb 15, 2010, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Silly? A profession that is built around self-buffing via enchantments being more able to resist having them stripped makes perfect sense.

It's primary attribute is designed around enchantments ending. For builds and uses taking this design into consideration, a chance to resist enchantment stripping is not a very good buff.

/notsigned

Just improve the energy (and/or heath) gain if it needs buffing.

What if it gained additional, but much less, energy and health for enchantments ending on adjacent creatures (or just allies)?

Bob Slydell · Feb 15, 2010, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Guess what? YOU ARE WRONG. Dervs cannot be effective healers/casters because they are eclipsed by Ele's Estorage/Ether Renewal/Infuse and Monk's sheer healing amount via Divine Favor.

Dervs also fail at being scythe wielders compared to Rangers, Assassins, and Warriors. Rangers can spam scythe attacks more as opposed to Derv's circular enchantment cycling with periods of no energy for attacks. Assassins can spam attacks more than Dervs AND have incredibly high DPS via Critical Strikes and have nearly a permanent 33% IAS. Warriors' Strength + Warrior's Endurance gives them more overall damage via armor pen AND STILL allow them to spam attacks more than dervs.

Conclusion: Derv's can't be healers/caster because Mysticism doesn't have enough healing/casting skills or a potent enough effect to make it worthwhile to use over other classes. Derv's can't be effective scythe users compared to other classes, because their primary (Mysticism) does nothing to augment damage directly.

The Dervish: A jack of all trades, master of none.

Most of the people in the world are stupid. Those people aren't playing the class saying "Oh, I'm going to be a Dervish because it is the best at doing X role." Actually, if most of us Derv mains were to be honest, I'd bet the overriding factor in why someone makes a Derv their main is because it looks cool. Personally, I like the concept/lore of the Derv and its' look. But for actual game performance, the Dervish is subpar to other classes due to the ineffective nature of Mysticism and the broken Scythe.

Something needs to be done, but the OP's idea is terrible. Too bad Anet doesn't give a flying fuggut enough to do something.

EDIT:
You want to see the true test of whether or not the Dervish is effective at ANY role? Go to DoA/UW/FoW/Deep/Urgoz, find a serious guild/alliance group that isn't using a gimmick, and see if they'll let you in. Dervs are not allowed in high-end PvE because that spot can be filled by something BETTER, which happens to be anything. And show me a consistently good guild/team for GvG/HA that uses even a single Derv in most of its' team builds.

Yet..there is a dervish in your avatar. Irony.

shoyon456 · Feb 15, 2010, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Slydell

Yet..there is a dervish in your avatar. Irony.

Yes, I stated quite clearly (although you may have lost it in my thoughts) that I enjoy the Dervish for the lore and appearance. And by my own admission, this makes me an idiot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Personally, I like the concept/lore of the Derv and its' look. But for actual game performance, the Dervish is subpar to other classes due to the ineffective nature of Mysticism and the broken Scythe.

A meaningful change to Mysticism would be elminating the negligent and pointless health gain and adding a 1-2% holy damage with weapons per rank of Mysticism or adding a 1-2 holy damage to adjacent foes when an enchantment ends.

And of course making Pious Renewal and Arcane Zeal functionally changed to be useful in situations outside of narrow buildsets while keeping them casting-oriented.

Coast · Feb 15, 2010, 09:03 AM // 09:03

avatar of melandru prenerf and avatar of grenth prenerf just said 'hi'.

shoyon456 · Feb 15, 2010, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

avatar of melandru prenerf and avatar of grenth prenerf just said 'hi'.

You're going to use OP'd forms that were nerfed almost 2 and a half years ago as a reason for not making Derv's viable at all? And even though we have the PvE/PvP split, Anet can't be bothered to drop AoM's e-cost in PvE.

I said make primary Derv's effective in its' own sphere, not IMBA.

EDIT:
Good point @ Cuilan, but you get my point.

EDIT2:
The Dervish functions. But when 3 other classes can utilize a Derv's primary weapon better than it can, its far from fine.

Cuilan · Feb 15, 2010, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

A meaningful change to Mysticism would be elminating the negligent and pointless health gain and adding a 1-2% holy damage with weapons per rank of Mysticism or adding a 1-2 holy damage to adjacent foes when an enchantment ends.

You'd have to have a way to remove the holy damage for playing with Mark of Pain necromancers.

Dervish are fine.

Amy Awien · Feb 15, 2010, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Yes, I stated quite clearly (although you may have lost it in my thoughts) that I enjoy the Dervish for the lore and appearance. And by my own admission, this makes me an idiot.

Why? Despite the MMO it's still an RPG so the choice for a class/profession for your character can or should still be based on the appeal it has on you.

Quote:

... adding a 1-2% holy damage with weapons per rank of Mysticism ....

In a seperate damage package? EBSoH sends it's regards.
Do like this direction though.